Meeting the Needs of the Reinsurance Market

Mehb Khoja

Hey, welcome back, everybody, to Firm and Final. You know, it’s the beginning of June. It’s summertime, which means it is the calm before the storm. And I thought it would be great today to have a conversation with some leaders in the reinsurance and the program management space.

So joining me today is Tanya Arrowsmith with Crum and Forster, Bob Black with Aon, and Raj Gulati with Risk Strategies.

And soon we’ll have to say of Brown and Brown. So we’ll get into that here in a minute. But I thought, why don’t we start off with you guys just quickly introducing yourself and giving a little bit more about your background. Tanya, why don’t we get started with you?

Tanya Arrowsmith

Oh, great. Thanks so much for having me, Mehb. Tanya Arrowsmith, I’m senior vice president at Crum and Forster and I lead the medical business unit. I have a kind of a career in underwriting, in stop loss, and have the opportunity to work with stop loss managed care, as well as a number of other ancillary products and just a real stop loss nerd.

And enjoy working in all kinds of program management, carrier reinsurer, MGUs. So it’s just such a pleasure to be here with this great panel.

Mehb Khoja

Awesome. I’m a fellow nerd. Bob, how about you?

Bob Black

Oh, okay. We’re all nerds, I guess, if we’re in this industry. But, Bob Black, part of a great team at Aon that focuses in the accident, health and life reinsurance space, we’re brokers and intermediaries, advisors, compete against lovely Raj and get to market to Tanya, which is always fun.

But, we’re risk and capital management and growth consultants and advocates for companies of all different shapes and sizes that play once again in the accident, health and life side.

I’ve been in the industry 33 years. 30 of those have been at Aon and 30 of those have been on the accident, health and life side. Whether it’s been underwriting or broking, it’s all been part of this great environment that we’re living in today. So, I live in Chicago. Mehb, you and I are struggling Chicago sports fans and the only other thing that people need to know about me, if they haven’t already, is I’ve got one wife, four kids, a son in law, daughter in law, a granddaughter, and two dogs.

Mehb Khoja

You are a busy man. How about you, Raj?

Raj Gulati

Yeah, Raj Gulati with Risk Strategies, been here for four years. I’m in the health care division, and we do reinsurance as well as managed care. Also do some ancillary lines as well. I’m in the Philadelphia region, home of the Super Bowl champions, Eagles. So I just got to, you know, poke that in a little bit.

But definitely a Philadelphia sports nut, as well, one wife, two kids. So that’s about enough for me.

Mehb Khoja

Okay. So again, appreciate you guys being on the podcast today. And where I would like to get started is I feel like we’re in a market right now where it’s basically like the tale of two stories. We’re hearing from stop loss carriers that they’re really struggling to find profitability. Yet the brokers are telling us that it is not a hard market.

So what gives? What’s going on in the market?

Raj Gulati

I think it’s capacity right now. I think there’s a good bit of capacity that’s still in the marketplace, and it’s driving some of the prices still down to where it’s not turning into a hard market. And that’s really, really the biggest driver right now.

Mehb Khoja

Just expand for me, what does capacity mean?

Raj Gulati

Capacity is your overall insurance paper that is able to be provided to MGUs and also to provide the carriers with business that’s being inbound.

Mehb Khoja

Yeah, I mean, that sounds great from a reinsurance intermediary perspective. Tanya, how do you feel about that? Is there a lot of capacity and is there room for all of us to be out here and trying to write business and be successful at it?

Tanya Arrowsmith

Yeah. I mean, I agree with Raj. There certainly is no lack of capacity. We’ve seen entrants and exits. As soon as somebody leaves though there’s always somebody new coming in. And we’ve certainly seen new entrants this year with Prudential and Old Republic and some other markets.

But it’s a $40 billion industry. And while a lot of that is concentrated with a few players, there’s still plenty of business out there, especially for those folks that are innovating and really finding their niche space and creating value in new and different ways.

But there’s no shortage of interest in coming in to stop loss and medical reinsurance in the United States. So while we would like to see some more responsible behavior from a risk perspective and a rating perspective, and I think it is a tale of two markets, I think what that’s going to mean for us is that there’s just going to be pockets where it continues to be soft and pockets where folks have, you know, risk takers maybe have a little bit less interest and there may be some hardening in those particular market segments.

Bob Black

I think, you know, it’s hard with the industry to paint a broad brush right across the results from a standpoint of everybody’s struggling. I mean, it’s easy to review some of the facts and figures and develop assumptions and apply to everybody. But, you know, each company has its own platform, their own offering, their expense margin, and yes, their profit objective.

So no doubt we saw some companies that had increases year over year. We see the market increase year over year. But there’s been some level of consistency that, you know, there are still companies that are doing a really good job. They found results that are meeting or exceeding their objectives. And I think the one thing that we’ve always loved about this industry, though, is it is short tail in nature, and you have an ability to impact one year versus the next. One bad year, one good year doesn’t mean that’s going to continue.

But both of their points, yes, there is a fair amount of capacity and there’s some really good innovation that is being able to apply to the market in all different areas, whether it’s administration, underwriting, claims management, with the hope that, you know, we’re going to be able to see more consistency across a greater number of companies.

But it’s hard to paint that broad brush like everybody’s struggling. To your point though, Mehb, I don’t think–and I think we’re all saying the same thing–we’re not seeing that we’re in a hard market. That’s not saying that you can’t get some level of rate increase or get to a level that you’re looking for as it relates to terms and conditions.

But from the late 90s, we saw and even going into the early 2000s, you did see that level of up and down aspect of the market. And then it was kind of a consistent lull and overall increases and loss ratios each year continue. And this was the biggest jump 80% to 86% on a gross loss ratio standpoint. But again there are some companies that have done a real nice job as it relates to hitting.

And the other part is maybe they’re playing in a segment of the market versus being, you know, national in scope or broad in nature as it hitting everything across what you can write. So fun times though, at times.

Mehb Khoja

I think that’s a fair point. Maybe I did paint a broad brush because there are carriers that are doing well. There’s other carriers that are not doing so well, and we’ve seen these cycles in the industry. Right. And it hits carriers at different times. How is it that certain carriers can go through those cycles and sustain and stick around in this marketplace?

And yet there’s these others that just come and go.

Raj Gulati

I think it’s longevity. You know, if you have a longer tail view of the business, you’re not going to be quick to make rash judgments. Newer entrants that come into the business think because of the short tail nature of it, that they can enter into it and going to have immediate dividends. But the unlimited limits that are out there going to allow for larger claims that come in.

And when they do get these pops, a lot of times they react to it very quickly. And that’s when they decide to exit the business. But those that have been around long enough to know that those cycles do exist are willing to ride them out.

Bob Black

I think, too, we’ve seen companies enter and exit for a number of different reasons, whether it’s from a business unit perspective or a corporate level perspective. It’s kind of hard to say that, you know, we know all the reasons why. Sometimes it’s they want to deploy their capital to other areas that they think are going to drive a greater return.

Sometimes they’ve just lost interest in a segment, or maybe they’re just not at the level that they want to be from an overall market perspective. You know, some of the things that the companies have gotten to over time, they want to be a leader or they don’t want to be in it. So some companies start out with great intentions and then things change as they get into it.

So there’s probably a number of factors. And then consolidation is driving, you know, sometimes where companies are actually playing.

Mehb Khoja

With like the end goal to consolidate or to acquire somebody else?

Bob Black

Oh I think consolidation is helping some companies exit. It’s also then helping some companies grow that market size and expand it in new areas. I mean, as we’ve seen, the industry has changed. When you look at growth and expansion, you’re seeing direct writers who never used to support MGUs are doing that now, and they’re doing that to help that growth into segments that maybe they don’t have the expertise in-house.

And it’s helping from that overall perspective of how do we continue to do the next thing to grow not only what we’re doing as a company, but hitting a larger segment of the market that maybe we’re not tapping into right now.

Tanya Arrowsmith

Yeah, I think that’s a great point, Bob. I mean, I think one thing that we’ve seen programs that have experimented and been successful, their business plans and their distribution approach and their whole strategy has been very thoughtful. And it’s a good blend of experimentation and some good old fashioned knowledge.

So we’ve all been around the block long enough to have seen certain playbooks that work and certain ones that don’t.

And there’s, you know, a few entrants that have come into the market thinking that they’re going to just kind of grow their way out of things or use an existing distribution that maybe isn’t exactly the same as a traditional stop loss distribution. And there’s some challenges with not knowing how you’re going to really attack the space and gain the scale that you need.

So having that expertise built in helps you make those tweaks and adjustments as you go, which gives you that stability and that, you know, wherewithal because it’s still a difficult market. There’s still a level of expertise necessary to be successful here. So making sure you get that right expertise on board and have that right strategy that adjusts with the market, I think that’s really critical to survival.

Mehb Khoja

So it’s a crowded space. It’s a volatile market. What is attracting new entrants into this environment?

Bob Black

Well I think you got a number of factors, right. I mean it continues to be a sizable market. You mentioned 40 billion before, Tanya. And that’s growing at 10% plus a year. So that size of the market, that growth is good. It’s short tail in nature, which I believe Raj you noted before, I noted the ability to underwrite each year.

So a bad year doesn’t mean that that’s going to continue year over year. And you’ve got the ability to figure out what are known risks and manage those accordingly. Going into the business underwriting cycle, it diversifies the portfolio for some companies. And I think, Tanya, you noted it’s a lower barrier of entry. So there’s a lot of things that seem to come into play that make this very attractive.

And the one part and this is a great example, this still is a relationship ball game. So there’s a lot of good fun people and companies that are out there that when you can partner with them, you could find a way to align with how you want to grow, but how you want to find results. So that aspect is still a fun little part that we’re seeing.

And hopefully that never goes away.

Tanya Arrowsmith

I’d echo that, we work with both a direct stop loss model as well as a program model at Crum. And one thing that we see is that low barrier to entry. So there’s a flexibility with the programs that are coming into the space with being able to have a piece or a part of an entire MGU and then being able to supplement that with, you know, either a vendor or with a carrier partner like Crum and Forster that can offer back office services.

So that gives them a real ability to focus on the distribution and the underwriting, and then maybe outsource the other services until they’re ready to build that in-house so that barrier to entry becomes pretty low. And you can get off the ground if you have that good distribution.

Mehb Khoja

Yeah, I think that’s true. And there’s been a lot of entrepreneurs in this space who started off as an underwriter or started off as a clinician, and then found an opportunity to create a business inside the industry. And you hear those stories all the time in our industry.

Tanya Arrowsmith

For sure. I mean, one of the things that I love about it, too, the MGU programs that we work with are, they’re the innovators in the space. And no disrespect to the direct writers, but, you know, when you get, we got a bunch of MGUs in a room together and have them start talking about some ideas and brainstorming.

These folks are creating that business because they see an opportunity to do something different, and they’re excited about kind of taking the bull by the horns and doing that themselves. So that’s the fun part of the business and the relationship part of the business, and where there’s such opportunity to disrupt is because folks see that opportunity. The space has changed but not changed.

So we could really do something different with respect to automation or underwriting or the claims vendors. And, you know, there’s some folks that are really reaching out on that and pushing the limits.

Bob Black

Well, you could see the market change, too. I mean, before you had defined roles and responsibilities from you had carriers in their lane, you had reinsurers in their lane. And now those two are kind of morphing together. And I think in the early stages we were, you know, raising our arms up and going, no, this can’t happen. What are we doing?

How do you support a competitor? But you’re now getting to the right partnerships work. You’re not going to write everything. You’re not going to be able to go after everything. And if you can partner with somebody and be better than if you were doing it on your own, I think there’s a lot of attractiveness there, and there’s a lot more willingness to work on that front.

And it’s seeing that and look at the reinsurers that all have the access to insurance paper out there. So the ecosystem is really kind of morphed into being one little controlled unit, which is a good and a bad thing when you look at things from different perspectives. But there’s a lot of opportunity in this market. And partnerships do go a long way.

Mehb Khoja

Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of opportunity in the market. It’s a very fun atmosphere, which I think draws a lot of people to it. But my question for you guys is, is there a need for more consolidation? Is there a need to see some additional exits in this space, or is there room for this marketplace to continue to grow and add new players?

Raj Gulati

I think it’s going to be a little bit of both. I think you’re going to see continue to see consolidation. I think that’s going to be on all phases. It’s going to be both the reinsurers, the carriers, as well as the brokers. You know, that’s going to be something that continues this year. We’ve already seen some consolidation earlier this year as well as today, as you alluded to earlier, Mehb, but that’ll continue.

But we’re also seeing new entrants come in too. There have been a few new people that are coming in. It’s just as Tanya had said earlier, it’s about creating a new avenue for people to MGUs to form and be able to create that business model that can be supported by carriers such as Crum and Forster.

Tanya Arrowsmith

And I think there’s some generational aspects to this as well in the demographics. So I’m not sure if it’s a need for folks to exit as much as there’s some folks that are just there’s a cohort that’s getting ready to retire. Right. So they’ve been really the foundation of the stop loss market for a long time and doing tremendous work.

And they’re looking to kind of pass it on to the next generation. And so some of the consolidation naturally happens as some of these folks look for their next adventure, which is great.

Bob Black

Yeah. I think when you when you look back at this market, I think Raj and Tanya noted the consistency. And yeah, I guess it’s always a question of is there enough capacity? Is there too much? Is this becoming a commodity type product, which is always the concern. You’re always trying to drive value and everyone defines value a little bit differently. And you got to work to find out what that is.

But looking back, just took a look at some numbers from what I think we all track in the industry. It’s pretty interesting when you look at 2014, the to 2024 numbers, 2014, the market was at 14 billion. It’s now at 40. Carriers that listed stop loss in their financials in 2014 were 96.

Last year 95. You had the top ten writers in 2014 were the exact same top ten writers in 2024, positions might have changed a little, but then when you get into the top 20 writers in 2014, they controlled 82% of the market and that number in 2024 is 82%. So there’s some amazing consistencies and you look at that and go, wow, that’s interesting.

How do you then do anything? The rest of the market is really finding ways to innovate and to partner, to connect, to drive, Tanya to your point, value as relates to how they’re presenting themselves, how they’re then connecting with others to write and then manage business. So there’s still a lot of opportunity, but the consistencies in this thing have just been amazing.

Mehb Khoja

Yeah, that’s a really good point. And there has been consolidation in our market. There’s also been consolidation on your guys’ side with the brokers and the reinsurance intermediaries. And as I mentioned before, big acquisition announced today by Brown and Brown. You guys have seen it too. Bob, with Aon’s acquisition of the NFP business, it seems to me like there’s been more consolidation on the broker side than there has been on the carrier side.

I remember when I started my career like Towers Perrin was one company. Watson Wyatt was another. And then you had Willis somewhere else, and now they’re all one massive company and almost was a part of Aon too. Why has there been so much consolidation on the brokerage side?

Bob Black

Well, I think when you’re looking at some of the larger companies that are publicly traded, you know, they’re looking to continue to drive growth and drive their platform to grow organically and then to just drive some new business as well. So, I mean, with the NFP acquisition, that really got Aon to a level that we probably weren’t excelling at.

I mean, I believe we were very strong from a middle market to large market. And when you look at some of our competitors, they were good at a smaller, lower down market where we just didn’t excel and didn’t have the platform and the footprint to do that. So NFP, you know, provided that part of the segment for us, but also some other areas that they were building in as their model that we just didn’t have.

So there was a lot of synergies across both companies, but it was getting us into new areas where I think some of the other acquisitions you see in the market are exactly the same. The companies are in the same areas. There’s a lot of overlap. You probably see a lot of consolidation then that drives what’s going on from an expense management, a team management standpoint.

But that particular acquisition made a lot of sense and it’s been a lot of fun. It takes a long time from an upfront integration standpoint. We’re in a lot of calls. We’re getting introduced to a lot of new people. But I will tell you, and I hope this doesn’t sound bad, we’re also learning new areas of Aon, which I’ve been here for 30 years, and it’s amazing all the different areas and it’s very same thing that Raj is going to go through.

And Tanya, you’ve gone through that as your company under the Fairfax umbrella and all the different entities that play in this space too. So I really think it’s trying to find a way to offer more to companies you work with in the specific segments you’re in, and then finding new segments that you can actually dive into.

Mehb Khoja

Sure, Raj, do you have a perspective on this, like you’ve been in this space for a long time and you’ve seen a lot of consolidation in the reinsurance side.

Raj Gulati

Yeah, no, some of those companies you mentioned I was at, you know, I think it’s really about trying to get more policies. I mean, I think the average person usually has about, you know, 2.1 policies with the customer. And it’s just trying to be able to expand upon that to get more business with an individual customer and being able to create the full items within the wheel, to be able to provide value to our customers is what we’re all striving for.

Mehb Khoja

So, Tanya, what about from the customer perspective? How does it feel when on the other side you see consolidation on the broker side?

Tanya Arrowsmith

Well, I think I mean, that’s very much an opportunity to work with somebody that has significant resources. So I mean, typically that consolidation brings additional capabilities to the teams that you work with. And we’ve had fantastic experience working with both Raj’s team and Bob’s team to place some difficult placements. They have a perspective on the market that’s really, really broad.

And it really gives them the ability to maneuver through. I mean, if you’ve if you’ve got a difficult placement that’s kind of wild and wacky and you want to experiment a little bit, they are really the best experts at knowing the entire market and who’s going to be the best fit so that you have the best outcome.

And then driving the analytics. Because I think the other great part to some of this consolidation is the analytics that these teams bring to the table, because that really can help not only from the reinsurance placement, but also from the business strategy and the creation and development of the program. It’s supportive so that all of the partners within the ecosystem are kind of pulling together.

Mehb Khoja

So I remember being at Mercer in 2007 when Mercer and Marsh’s employee benefits business came together under one umbrella. And historically, Mercer was the place where, like the 10,000 and up groups came and it was all consulting engagements, fee for service, and all the Marsh engagements was like small market and middle market. It was all commission driven, and the people at Mercer thought the people from Marsh were just, you know, dumb brokers.

And the Marsh people thought like these folks from Mercer, they don’t know what they’re doing there. They’re spending so much time. If you looked at like the margins that the two businesses were driving, Marsh was producing a better margin. And so, of course, Marsh and McLennan looked at that like, hey, you folks from Mercer better figure out what these folks from Marsh are doing.

And when that integration started happening, then you started like sharing talent across the two different verticals. That’s actually how I got started in stop loss. It’s because we had all these Marsh EB accounts that needed stop loss placements. There was no stop loss to be had on the big stuff that Mercer was working on. And so I do agree, it’s kind of like the knowledge share, it’s expansion to more clients, and it’s just trying to get more yield out of the clients that you have.

Bob Black

And I do like what Tanya noted as it relates to the data and analytics, which is such a huge part. And I think where Crum has found success is having a broad team that can go in and take advantage of any situation, any type of client, and help when and where possible. You saw many years ago where you had carriers that were just providing paper and capacity, and that was it. That market has changed.

You know, everyone is in a position to take risk, wants to take risk, wants to have a team that could help and assist when and where possible, because some companies don’t need it, others do. But having that capability up front, I remember when I started it at Aon Re in ’98, there were more brokers than analysts and actuaries, and that dynamic has flipped.

We’re now the minority. So I’m taking my actuarial classes. Mehb, you’ll be happy to hear that.

Mehb Khoja

Yeah, I will help you prep for your exam.

Bob Black

I will not pass.

Mehb Khoja

Well, how about this is Bob and Raj, you guys spend a lot of time with customers. What is the top issue? What is the hottest topic that clients and prospects are coming and talking to you guys about?

Raj Gulati

You know, over the course of the last couple of years, it always seems to be cell and gene therapy. Right. That seems to be the big boogeyman. Roctavian was the one that was going to take everything down. But, you know, it’s really been the uptake over the last couple of years is it just hasn’t been there.

So it seemed to have normalized the amount of claim activity that folks have been seeing. I think at the end of the day, it’s still your neonatal claims that most people are really concerned about children’s hospital and the length this day that folks are at and what the charges are at.

Bob Black

Yeah, I think the claims aspect is one, I think underwriting is another. You know, you’re starting to see companies using technology and AI in the underwriting platform. How is that being incorporated? Seems to be a little different for everybody. To Raj’s point on claims, severity has always been somewhat a concern. And why is that?

Is that you got payers that are dumping bills late and you got little ability to adjudicate, is it contracts that are being renegotiated. Is it just, you know, charge masters that are, you know, being inflated. There’s a lot of different areas that are causing some concern and discussion. But the nice thing is there’s so many great entities and individuals out there, you know, trying to innovate and figure out how to slice and figure out a solution and that’s where some of the fun comes in.

It’s not really getting a transaction or reinsurance placement down. It’s figuring out how do you find that upfront growth. But then how do you manage to those results. And that’s where I think, you know, the rubber hits the road for a lot of us.

Mehb Khoja

Well Tanya, in your seat what’s been a bigger “G,” gene therapy or GLP-1s?

Tanya Arrowsmith

For sure the gene therapy, I’d agree with Raj. That seems to be more of the conversation that we’re having. I think the market is kind of really paused a little bit on both in terms of the liability. I suspect the GLP-1s, we’re all going to be dealing with that a lot more as a frequency issue in the short term, and then it will kind of work its way through the system.

Whereas the gene therapy, folks are seeing it as some pops in the experience. But we do expect it to gain scale as that technology and the infrastructure to support it really become much more prevalent. So I think short term GLP-1s, we’ll have more conversations about that, particularly in the smaller market segments. But gene therapy is just it’s going to be a huge development. And something that we’re all going to need to kind of partner together on to, to try to figure out the right, the right way forward.

Bob Black

Tanya, do you think that they’re impacting the different segments differently? Don’t like you think GLP-1s are impacting more of the smaller level funded? Because like you said, the frequency and utilization versus, you know, some of the gene therapies which we saw. Right. And everyone was concerned and just the frequency hasn’t been there. Whether people aren’t taking it up or they’re concerned, you know, what’s the long term impact if I take one versus waiting for another?

But are you seeing it a little different from the impact in the market?

Tanya Arrowsmith

Absolutely. So I think generally smaller to mid market is you know, they’re very concerned with their overall costs. And so from that perspective, the GLP-1s have more of a potential to have an impact on the first dollar aggregates. I think most folks are taking a pretty cautious approach to their plan designs on that right now.

But I would suspect that at some point the government is going to push to basically create greater access to folks for those medications, and we’re going to have to solve that from the first dollar perspective. Whereas with gene therapies, that’s obviously much more of a severity issue. It will become more prevalent as we go.

But the uptake just still, we’re just not seeing it. So and it impacts Medicare space different from Medicaid, different from the commercial. So we see that in, you know, concerns different on the managed care business than the stop loss business.

Raj Gulati

Absolutely. Yeah. Some interesting stats are, you know, that since 2019 to 2023, there’s been a 700% increase in GLP-1 users. In 2024, 4% of the population are taking GLP-1s. That’s equivalent to 13.6 million people. In 2025, the early indication is around 6% of the population, or 20.8 million people are taking GLP-1s, which I still personally think is understated.

J.P. Morgan had put out a recent research that’s predicting by 2030, 9% of the population or 30 million people will be taking GLP-1s. This, without a doubt is going to be a huge, huge number and a huge thing that we have to deal with going forward.

Mehb Khoja

Yeah, these are really big expenses, whether you’re talking gene therapy or GLP-1s. It’s something our industry is going to have to be prepared for. And this has been a great conversation, guys. Again, thank you for joining me for this conversation. As we close it up, I’ll ask you to give me your thoughts on the industry. Give me like a prediction that you expect with us going into the 2026 season.

Bob, why don’t we start with you?

Bob Black

All right. This is going to be way out of left field. I think, Republicans and Democrats are going to start working together in harmony.

Tanya Arrowsmith

From your lips to God’s ears, Bob.

Bob Black

Yeah. We’re all going, “That’s never going to happen.” I think for the next six months, we’ll see some continued consolidation across the industry. There’s just a lot of money and a lot of investments looking to figure out where’s the next growth engine, where’s the next area to play, and how do we take advantage of some of the entities that really make sense to acquire and build into the overall platform?

But I’ll make a prediction and I don’t know if this is going to be true. You wanted something big, that another stop loss writer will exit the industry.

Mehb Khoja

Okay, Raj, how about you?

Raj Gulati

You know, I’m going to agree with Bob. I think there’s going to continue to be consolidation. I think you’re going to see at least one stop loss writer consolidate. I was going to say you’d see one broker consolidate, but I think that may have just happened today anyway. But, you know, that’ll continue to be… I do think you’re going to see maybe a couple new entrants come into the marketplace as well, too.

So we’ll see how that all works out. And, go birds.

Mehb Khoja

All right, Tanya, you close us up.

Tanya Arrowsmith

Well, I think these guys really said it. I’m in total agreement. I’d love to say that it’s going to be a harder market and that we’ll see some correction, but I don’t really see that happening. And I think that is going to hasten entrance and exit of players as we all look for new solutions. So I’m just hopeful that there’ll be transparency.

And as we work through health care in general and try to solve some of the really large problems that our industry is facing together.

Mehb Khoja

All right. And I’ll close this up with this. So in 2014, the private exchange marketplace was going to make the group industry go away. And that never quite happened. And here we are in 2025, the ICHRA market is supposed to make the group space go away. And while I don’t think it’s going to make the entire group space go away, I do think it’s going to take a bite out of the small group, self-funded industry.

And so that’s my bold prediction as we close it out. So again, thank you guys for joining me on this edition of Firm and Final. We’ll see you next time.